I testified in court against Krunoslav Prates in Munich, and on April 6, Željko Peratović wrote on his blog: “after Vukojević’s testimony in Munich, from Sipe Mesić they will turn to Vukojević in order to protect Josip Perković”
Transfered from portal dalje.com
INTERVIEW – VUKOJEVIĆ MAY 23 2008
The HDZ Could Sue President Mesić Due to Weapons
Author: Nataša Zečević
ZAGREB, CROATIA – Less than two weeks ago, a former judge of the Constitutional Court, Vice Vukojević, filed charges through his lawyer Zvonimir Hodak against Croatian President Stjepan Mesić due money embezzlement and abuse of office. The charges refer to facts that took place in 1993 when Stjepan Mesić was president of the parliament. Vukojević waited 15 years to file charges against the president, and he explained us why in an interview for Javno.
* You have waited 15 years to file these charges. Why?
– The reason is that for the past 15 years, Stjepan Mesić has been continuously making up stories about me, defaming, and so on. I bore an office and unfortunately I could not answer him in a proper way. That is why now I have decided to prepare a book with all his lies and documents which will confirm that he lies continuously. I found out about the Munich case, which is visible from an interview I did for Sanja Modric, when I was in the monitoring of Croatian consulates around Europe, and so I managed to access to the data that consul Sokolić with Mesić, back then president of the parliament, took money from the account of the š due to the equipment of the Croatian Army. Back then, I think it was December 14, 1993, I informed President Franjo Tuđman in presence of Jure Radić, chief of Franjo Tuđman’s cabinet, and Ivić Pasalić. At the end of the year I left the Foreign Ministry and I found out that Sokolić was recalled from his office. It is interesting how I found out about it. I was in Luka Bebić’s cabinet, I think that then he was president of the Committee of National Security. His phone rang, he answered, and I heard that while he was having that conversation my name was mentioned. I asked him who it was, and he said Consul Sokolić asked me to intercede to you so that you let him keep the office of general consul in Munich. And then I answered ‘Luka you know what is going on and I informed you about, we are talking about money which were taken without the knowledge of Foreign Minister Mate Granić. An neither Minister of Defence Gojko Šušak knew anything about those cars, and I do not know what has happened to those cars. I also have to mention another situation. When I became judge of the Constitutional Court, and Mesić president of the republic, the president of the Constitutional Court came to me one day and told me ‘Stipe called and said that on December 14 1993 you were with President Tuđman in presence of Jure Radić and Ivić Pasalić, and that you said that Mesić took money, I think it was 35,000 deutschmarks, from the consulate in Munich’. Mesić told him to tell me to deny if someone made that public. I answered that I will deny that I did not tell the President when the record came up, but I can not deny that money was taken if it was taken. That is how it ended, but they dismissed Sokolić.
* But anyway you had six years, why did you not file the charges earlier?
– I thought that the institutions would do their job, and that if they dismissed Sokolić, then I thought that probably the minister knew why the general consul was discharged. You can not discharge a consul if the president know nothing about it. So the procedure went in this directions, and I could not follow the whole development of Sokolić’s discharge, but while I was at the Constitutional Court I could not filed the charges as it would have been a conflict of interests. The Constitutional Court is the institution which decides whether the immunity of the president should be removed or not. So how could I decide whether remove his immunity and sue him at the same time?
Mate Granic wants to become a counselor President Kolinda Grabar Kitarovic (note ž.p.)
* Mate Granić, Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time, stated that he knew nothing about the case.
– Mate Granić eats Stipe Mesić’s bread. So Mate Granić will not spit in the plate he eats on. Nacional magazine is Stipe Mesic’s newpaper, and Mate Granić knows that he became dean of the Journalism Academy founded by Ivo Pukanić. That is why he shared information from the President’s Office with him. The president (Tuđman) was accused of spying on journalists, but he did not spy on journalists, he monitored Mate Granić, who gave out information. Greguric informed his journalists, Sarinic his own, Vesna Škare her reporters, and Mate his own. Hence journalists felt insulted.
* But Ivić Pasalić said that he does not remember the incident, nor the meeting.
– No, Ivić Pasalić is behaving diplomatically, considering that the issue is about Mesić. If a procedure starts, the transcript reports that he was present. I know that he was present. And eventually, if the transcript disappears, the list can not vanish.
* Some say that this is a personal skirmish between you and President Mesic. Mesic once insulted you due to a supposed case of rape against a Muslim woman in the campo if Vojno Kraj in Mostar.
– I testified in court against Krunoslav Prates in Munich, and on April 6, Željko Peratović wrote on his blog: “after Vukojević’s testimony in Munich, from Sipe Mesić they will turn to Vukojević in order to protect Josip Perković”. And that journalist said that in September 1999, a friend of Mesić’s gave the book “Molila sam da me ubiju” (I begged them to kill me), dedicated by the author to Mesić describing him as one of the most sincere people in the region. The woman in that book was invented. He brought that article to Mirko Galić, editor of Globus, but he refused to publish it, and Peratović thought he was a censor. Galić did not want to publish the book because Denis Kuljiš told him it was a common gossip book. After that, the Feral Tribune and Nacional published it, with big articles about it. And now Peratović says that in 1999 Mesić and Vesna Pusić led a great publicity against me in the election campaign, especially on Radio 101. Back then I was in hospital undertaking surgery and I could not follow it. On HTV in April they hosted the woman who says I raped her and a montage of a TV video in which I speak, and Josip Perković stands behind me. This was obviously a message to Perković. After that, on April 7, 2006, shortly after that, Vesna Pusić asked Sanader with the majority in parliament to help her remove immunity from me. What immunity, there was not criminal procedure, everyone reported that the bill of indictment was over. Then Pusić wrote a letter to the Constitutional Committee to remove my immunity. Who can remove my immunity? Only the Constitutional Court. The Committee was Vesna Pusić’s puppet to file charges against me. Why did the State Attorney’s Office not move? For this, they started political chase and media lynch against me, a continuous media terrorism.
* Do you think Mr Vokojević that Mesić would push himself so far to invent a rape with the author of the book?
– If he told other lies, then he made up this one too. He invented that President Tuđman sent him to substitute Stjepan Kljuić. And it was not true. He also said that I, as brigadier of the Croatian Army, boasted about two trucks of dead Muslims, because we like attacked Muslims in Prozor. Nevertheless, this happened at the time they showed the film about Bruno Bušić. But I can prove I was not there, I was in Canada, I could not have possibly been there in that time. There, and they proved that ours attacked the Muslims, that there were eight dead of theirs, and seven of ours.
* Alright, then what is the background of your conflict?
– I do not know, I do not know. Everything started at the time they made the film on Bruno Bušić. Then, at the time they shot the film around 1992, boys of the security came tot me and told me that my office in parliament was bugged, that they saw it. Then I called and told him, if that belonged to them, to remove it. The boys went out and wanted to take out from the car the tools to remove it, but Mesić did not allow the Service for the Protection of the Constitutional Order to enter the parliament. I have this written down.
* What happened during the shooting of the film that Mesić resents you so much?
– Before the shooting of the film, Josip Perković was sent to retirement as his role in the liquidation of Bruno Bušić was metioned in the film, considering Perković knew that his liquidation was being prepared. Before the film was released, I showed that to Tuđman, but Perković replied to him with lies about it. The reason is that Josip Manolić was against the film. I have to say this. One day, Zdravka Bušić called me and told me to bring the tape because the president wanted to see the film. I thought that he would only see it. Tuđman requested not to put anything without at least two evidences for each sequence of the film. I brought the tape to him, I sat in the second row. Almost all the state leaders were there. The film stars, silence. The film ends, and Ivić Pašalić turns to me and tells me “mind your head”. “Has anyone anything to say?” the president said. Some spoke but he cut them short. Then Manolić said he thought the film should not be shown on the national television, as it would divide the people. Tudjman then said that it should be show because it would unite the people. In fact, Tudjman went upstairs (to the President’s Office) and then he asked the State Security Administration (UDBA) to make a list of all the Croatian politicians who entered politics, and were collaborators of the UDBA. Manolić was in charge of those papers.
* Who was removed from that list?
– Please don’t start now. Don’t ask me anything.
* Alright, but this is not a good enough reason for Mesić’s antagonism with you.
– But what happened after 1993? Croatia Osiguranje. The president mentioned a policy in his presentation to the parliament. President of Croatia Osiguranje Kovačević had the policy number 1. and then when I had my presentation in parliament I said, people do not send him to ski in Austria. If he brakes a nail then the state will have to pay him 1,360,000 DM, and I knew who had the policy number 2, and the policy number three, and so on. Do you know that after that all politicians fell, only one survived. With the policy number two. I touched someone’s material interests.
* You were too accused of collaborating with the UDBA.
– When we were on the Island of Sveti Grgur, then some Ismetbegic said I collaborated with the. How? I asked him. And he answered that I sent them bullets, and I kept the cartridge case.
* Such was your collaboration with them?
– Something like that. But, all collaborators who were collaborators left traces behind them. May anyone in the world come to me to get some imformation on their dossiers. In our collaboration we evaluated the actions of the collaborators. There were collaborators who became collaborators because blackmailed. This was not our interest, they did not cooperate. But if the reason of one’s collaboration was Yugoslavian patriotism, then one would be taken one hundred percent, because such people would never be friends of the Croatian state anymore. Some in 1991 worked with the UDBA in Bosnia. Let anyone say a word or whatever about me disadvantaging someone. But we know whose dossiers were destroyed.
– We are talking about thousands of people. Mesić’s dossier was not destroyed, he still has it today, in the state archive. Those collaborators are not bad people, but they knelt down in the wrong moment.
Željko Peratović and Vice Vukojević talk 1994 for the weekly “Panorama” in the Croatian parliament. Photo by Vlatko Pinjuh.
* Media described you as a conservative, right wign orientated politician.
– I asked a man why they constantly label my as a man of the right wing. I say no one by my manners ever described me in this way. But I know confidently that when I speak in parliament I get ten people who would like to kill me. This is the point. Right wing politicians always tell the truth, because they consider themselves the Right. While left wing politicians, even neural ones, not to mention what hermaphrodites, they will speak in a way that the Mother of God would not understand them. However, all my speeches were short and based on facts. Also when I held a speech after those barricades in Knin. The Serbs say that where Serbian churches are, there is Serbia. And I say, thank you but it is not. And in regards to their victims from the Second World War they keep recalled, I said that I did not know how many were killed. But during the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) no Serbian parish in Croatian territory disappeared, while 11 Croatia catholic settlements disappeared in the area of the left bank of the river Una.
* What will be your next move? You said you are writing a book.
– Yes, we will see what comes next. The lawyer will decide about it.
* You have the same lawyer as General Vladimir Zagorec, who is also in conflict with Mesić. Was it intentinal or a coincidence?
– Mesić and Zagorec are connected because they supplied the Croatian Army.
* Do you think that Zagorec could know something which could disadvantage Mesić?
– I have no idea, but he there are others who could know. The Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) has some.
*Why does the HDZ say nothing then?
– I do not know, this concerns them. Some people asked me why I do report other things against Stjepan Mesić. Then I answered them that the money belonged to the HDZ, and not to the state. I am a common party member, and if the leadership of the party wants me to talk about it, I can. They have documents.
* Are you talking about the persue of weapons which passed through the HDZ?
* Do you have documents about it or just knowledge?
– I do not have those documents. I have the knowledge, but I will not report this. Let the party do that, it is their money.
* Are you planning to participate actively in the party?
– No, when my term at the Constitutional Court ended, I went to the party and told them that my term was over. I am at their disposal.